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DOJ Demands Files On Anti-Trump Activists, And A Web Hosting Company Resists

The Department of Justice has issued a warrant for a web hosting company to turn over all records related to the website of #DisruptJ20, a group that organized actions to disrupt President Trump’s inauguration in January.

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At the intersection where protections against unreasonable search and seizure meet the rights to free speech and association, there’s now a web hosting company called DreamHost.

The California-based company is resisting a Department of Justice warrant that demands it hand over all files related to DisruptJ20.org, a website created by one of its customers to plan and announce actions intended to disrupt President Trump’s inauguration.

After Inauguration Day protests in Washington, D.C. turned violent, 230 people were arrested and charged with felony rioting.

In gathering evidence for the nearly 200 still-open cases in D.C. court, the Justice Department issued a warrant that DreamHost says is so broad it would require handing over the logs of 1.3 million visits to the website.

The company called the warrant “a highly untargeted demand that chills free association and the right of free speech afforded by the Constitution. … This is, in our opinion, a strong example of investigatory overreach and a clear abuse of government authority.”

A week after the inauguration, DreamHost says the Justice Department asked it for records relating to the person who had registered the site – such as the person’s physical and email addresses – and it complied.

But in July, the government issued a new warrant that asked for additional materials: “all files, databases, and database records” related to DisruptJ20’s website, as prosecutors moved to seize all information “involving the individuals who participated, planed [sic], organized, or incited the January 20 riot.”

DreamHost resisted providing the newly-requested information, citing concerns that the warrant was “overbroad” and may result in “overseizure.”

But the Justice Department said DreamHost must provide the information regardless.

“DreamHost’s opinion of the breadth of the warrant does not provide it with a basis for refusing to comply with the Court’s search warrant and begin an immediate production,” U.S. Attorney Channing Phillips wrote in a motion to the D.C. Superior Court, which will soon hold a hearing regarding the matter.

In its filing with the court, DreamHost says the warrant requires the company “to turn over every piece of information it has about every visitor to a website expressing political views concerning the current administration”:

“This information includes the IP address for the visitor, the website pages viewed by the visitor, even a detailed description of software running in the visitor’s computer. In essence, the Search Warrant not only aims to identify the political dissidents of the current administration, but attempts to identify and understand what content each of these dissidents viewed on the website. The Search Warrant also includes a demand that DreamHost disclose the content of all e-mail inquiries and comments submitted from numerous private e-mail accounts and prompted by the website, all through a single sweeping warrant.”

The Justice Department told NPR it won’t comment on the case aside from the court filings.

Is the government really asking for all those visitor logs?

“Yes, they definitely are,” says Electronic Frontier Foundation senior staff attorney Mark Rumold. EFF advocates for internet privacy and free speech, and has advised DreamHost in its case.

Rumold tells NPR that when DreamHost first approached EFF about responding to the warrant, he guessed “that DOJ would realize how broad the warrant was, and say, oh you know, in fact we’re not actually looking for IP logs for everyone who’s ever visited the site,” and would narrow its request accordingly.

But instead, the government insisted on DreamHost’s compliance with the warrant as written.

“It always raises red flags when the government is trying to pry into the organization or the association of its political opponents,” Rumold says. “That said, the DOJ has apparently demonstrated to a judge that there is probable cause to believe that something on this site is evidence of a crime.” But, he says, the logs of everyone who ever visited the site, along with when and where they viewed it — “there’s no way that that’s all evidence of a crime.”

“It’s always troubling when the government seizes far more information than it could ever use,” he says. “That’s just generally a problem regardless of the investigation. I think what’s particularly unique about this case is that the crime and the topic that is being investigated is a group of people who are politically opposed to the president.”

For administrators of websites that involve political dissent or discussion, Rumold says best practices would dictate not keeping logs of visitor data.

And Legba Carrefour, who was one of the organizers for DisruptJ20, says the site’s administrators didn’t keep this data for DisruptJ20.org—DreamHost did.

“We would not keep records on who visits our website,” Carrefour told NPR. “We don’t want to know, and we don’t care. But also I’m sure like half of those are probably cops,” checking to see what the group had planned for the inauguration.

Carrefour said DisruptJ20 used what’s called “the open organizing model”: Instead of making plans in secret, they posted everything they intended to do right on their website. They held biweekly meetings to audiences of 200 or 300 people at a time, in places like church basements, which he assumes police attended. “We feel like open organizing is a better way to recruit people, and also sort of a more honest, forthright, and successful way of organizing mass mobilizations.”

Carrefour said he was “surprised and impressed” that DreamHost is “going to the lengths they are to resist” the government’s request.

DreamHost says its stance isn’t a political one.

“This has become a political issue for many – but our interest in this case truly isn’t that specific,” DreamHost spokesman Brett Dunst wrote in an email to NPR. “We’re completely content-agnostic in this. For DreamHost this is simply an over-broad request for records, and we feel obligated to contest it.”

He said DreamHost keeps server logs in order to manage the sites of its 400,000-plus customers and identify issues like Distributed Denial of Service attacks.

“We only retain those logs for a very brief time,” Dunst wrote. “The DOJ served us with a preservation notice immediately after the inauguration, which is why we still have access to that data in this case.”

The Justice Department’s demand for the logs has troubling implications, says Georgetown University law professor Paul Ohm, who formerly worked as an attorney in the Department of Justice’s Computer Crime and Intellectual Property Section.

“It’s disturbing to me,” Ohm tells NPR, “that with a single warrant, signed by a single judge — especially given the speech implications of this particular website — it’s disturbing to me that that could be the single key that unlocks the political and speech habits of I-don’t-know-how-many-people.”

He estimated that 1.3 million visitor logs could represent thousands of people, or hundreds of thousands. And he said that the framers of the U.S. Constitution specifically wanted to avoid practices like British general warrants, which gave sweeping access to search any location with a single piece of paper.

“This smells like a general warrant,” says Ohm. “I think the framers would recognize a single request to get the reading habits of tens of thousands of people to essentially be the closest thing we have in modern times to a general warrant.”

Ohm says courts have often considered how rights against illegal search and seizure begin to overlap with free speech rights – and “this case is tailor-made to sit at that intersection.”

“This site is about speech. It’s about listening, which is also kind of a First Amendment right,” he says. “It’s about assembly. It’s about petitioning the government. And so I think it’s not going to be hard for the lawyers in this case to say this isn’t just about policing and the limits of policing. This is about disruption of speech. And so for all those reasons, it really raises the stakes on this particular litigation and it means it’s going to get a close look from the courts.”

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'Body Brokers' Get Kickbacks To Lure People With Addictions To Bad Rehab

Dillon Katz, at home in Delray Beach, Fla., says recovering drug users in his group counseling meetings frequently used to offer to help him get into a new treatment facility. He suspects now they were recruiters — so-called “body brokers” — who were receiving illegal kickbacks from the corrupt facility.

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Peter Haden/WLRN

About five years ago, Dillon Katz, entered a house in West Palm Beach, Fla.

“I walked in and the guy was sitting at this desk — no shirt on, sweating,” Katz says.

The man asked Katz for a smoke.

“So I gave him a couple cigarettes,” Katz says. “He went around the house and grabbed a mattress from underneath the house — covered in dirt and leaves and bugs. He dragged it upstairs and threw it on the floor and told me, ‘Welcome home.’ “

The house was a sober living house or “sober home” — a kind of privately owned halfway house intended to integrate recovering drug and alcohol users back into community life and help them stay on the right path. It was one of the first sober homes Katz lived in. He’s been in and out of drug treatment ever since.

Some sober homes are good places. But others see a person who has an addiction as a payday.

Amid the nation’s growing opioid crisis, South Florida has become a mecca for drug treatment. And as more people arrive looking for help, there’s more opportunity for corruption and insurance fraud. There are millions to be made in billing patients for unnecessary treatment and tests, according to officials investigating the problem.

The first step for unscrupulous rehab centers: Recruiting clients who have good health insurance. That’s created a whole new industry — something called patient brokering or “body brokering.”

Staci Katz, Dillon’s mom, keeps the bills for his five years of on-and-off drug treatment in three large binders. The total charges now exceed $600,000.

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Peter Haden/WLRN

The corrupt owner of a drug treatment center might pay $500 per week in kickbacks to the operators of sober homes who send them clients with health insurance — clients like Dillon Katz.

At her home in Boynton Beach, Fla., Dillon’s mom, Staci Katz, pulls out three huge binders where she keeps track of his medical bills. She’s tallied up the charges for the five years her 25-year-old son has been in-and-out of treatment: more than $600,000 dollars.

“You could see by the billing — this was very lucrative,” Staci says.

There are charges for all kinds of things — nutrition counseling, acupuncture and chiropractic care among them. But the big expenses were for testing — urine testing.

“When they had charged $9,500 for five urinalyses,” she says, “I was like, ‘Huh! Now I get it.’ “

State and federal officials have been cracking down on fraudulent rehab centers.

The Palm Beach County Sober Home Task Force has has arrested and charged more than 30 operators of addiction treatment centers and sober homes with body brokering in the past 10 months.

In July, U.S. Attorney General Jeff Sessions announced the arrest of Eric Snyder, the 30-year old owner of a Delray Beach rehab center. Prosecutors say he billed insurance companies for more than $58 million in bogus treatment and tests, and recruited addicts with gift cards, drugs and visits to strip clubs.

Dillon Katz was staying at a sober home across the street when Snyder’s place was raided.

Katz alternates between an easy smile and a piercing gaze. He was diagnosed with Tourette’s syndrome and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder at a young age. In high school, he loved acting and music but struggled socially. It was after high school that his drug use escalated — from cocaine to crack to heroin. And his behavior went off the rails.

“I ended up throwing my suitcase out of the window,” Katz says. “I was punching the garage. My hands were bloody. I was flipping out.”

His mom eventually decided she’d had enough of the chaos.

“I said, ‘If you want help, then I will help you,’ ” Staci remembers. “We had no idea what we were up against.”

Delray Beach authorities say body brokers used to target recovering drug users hanging out on the patio of a local Starbucks. The coffee shop restricted access to the patio in 2015, after a meeting with the city officials and the police department.

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Peter Haden/WLRN

That’s when their drug treatment rollercoaster started. For the next five years, her son went from one treatment center, to another, to another.

“The people my group counseling meetings would offer to help get me into a new place,” he says. “But they always asked first, ‘What’s your insurance like?’ “

He’s pretty sure now that they were doing it for the money.

Body brokering is a source of frustration for legitimate providers of drug rehab services.

“Kids are literally being bought and sold.” says Andrew Burki, founder of Life of Purpose — an addiction treatment center on the Florida Atlantic University campus in Boca Raton. “You want $500? Sell a friend! I mean, that’s crazy, right? But that’s literally what’s happening.”

Dillon Katz now lives in Port Saint Lucie in a house he shares two roommates. They hang out on the back patio, smoking Marlboro Menthols and cracking wise.

He’s doing well, he says — he’s been clean for eight months now and he’s a tattoo artist, a job he likes.

After the unsuccessful rehab stays, an arrest and stint in jail ultimately landed him in drug court — that means his incentive for staying off drugs now includes the need to convince a judge that he’s clean. Katz says he’s found that, for him, the best support is through a recovery fellowship.

“Any kind of spiritual program,” Katz says. “That’s the answer.”

And, he adds, there’s no insurance required.

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Today in Movie Culture: 'Shrek' Meets 'Thor: Ragnarok,' New 'Captain America: Civil War' VFX Reel and More

Here are a bunch of little bites to satisfy your hunger for movie culture:

Remade Trailer of the Day:

Darth Blender redid the latest Thor: Ragnarok trailer using footage from the Shrek movies:

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VFX Breakdown of the Day:

More than a year after its release, Gradient Filming shares a lengthy visual effects reel breaking down their work on Captain America: Civil War (via Heroic Hollywood):

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Poster Parody of the Day:

Sorry for the spoiler if you’re not caught up on Game of Thrones but this mashup poster parodying Suicide Squad is just too perfect not to share:

The internet is too fast. pic.twitter.com/SIkPDHMqIs

— ?Stephen M. Colbert (@smcolbert) August 14, 2017

Star Wars Parody of the Day:

Jabba the Hutt teaches a masterclass in stand-up comedy in this funny video from Bellpond Studios (via /Film):

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Cosplay of the Day:

This video shared by James Gunn might be a step away from “cosplay,” but it’s also not really Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3 footage:

How dare they leak this footage from Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3?? https://t.co/LAJ9rUX2yy

— James Gunn (@JamesGunn) August 12, 2017

Vintage Image of the Day:

Steve Martin, who turns 72 today, takes a look behind the camera while making The Jerk in 1979:

Influences of the Day:

This video highlighting all the classic art references in Alien: Covenant might give you a new appreciation for the sequel (via io9):

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Soundtrack Album of the Day:

With Mondo’s new vinyl release of the Anomalisa score, you get a cool diorama based on the movie (via IndieWire):

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Bad Film Analysis of the Day:

Find out the “hidden meaning” of Hayao Miyazaki’s Spirited Away from an alien in the future in the latest Earthling Cinema:

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Classic Trailer of the Day:

Today is the 30th anniversary of the release of No Way Out starring Kevin Costner and Gene Hackman. Watch the original trailer for the classic thriller below.

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and

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Trump Turns To 43-Year-Old 'America First' Trade Law To Pressure China

President Trump holds up a signed memorandum calling for a trade investigation of China at the White House on Monday.

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Alex Brandon/AP

Updated at 10:35 p.m. ET

President Trump on Monday authorized his top trade official to look into whether China is guilty of intellectual property theft, a move that could eventually lead to trade sanctions.

Trump called his action “a very big move” against practices that cost our nation “millions of jobs and billions and billions of dollars each and every year.”

He cited not just the theft of intellectual property such as computer software, but also Beijing’s requirement that U.S. companies turn over proprietary technology as a condition of entering China’s markets.

“We will safeguard the copyrights, patents, trademarks, trade secrets and other intellectual property that is so vital to our security and to our prosperity,” Trump said at the White House. He was flanked by U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer, Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin and members of his economic team.

Monday’s steps were very preliminary, and analysts say that it could be a long time, if ever, before significant trade sanctions are imposed on China.

Eventually, it could lead the administration to initiate what’s called a Section 301 investigation, a sanctions mechanism that’s part of the Trade Act of 1974.

Section 301 was widely used in the 1980s under the Reagan administration. More recently US presidents have complied with a requirement to obtain World Trade Organization authorization before using Section 301.

But Trump has implied he may use Section 301 without WTO authorization. Bypassing the WTO would be quicker.

“It saves time,” says Matt Gold, a former deputy assistant US trade representative. A WTO case “would take a few years for us to bring it to a WTO panel, get a decision, then it will get appealed to the WTO appellate body. Then we get another decision. Then we have to go through another WTO process to get authorization for specific types of trade barriers. … So it can take a few years to get the WTO authorization.”

But Gold says using Section 301 without WTO authorization would leave the US government in conflict with its obligations under international law.

The White House move was applauded by technology groups, which have long complained about intellectual property theft. The Information Technology and Innovation Foundation issued a statement saying “for too long China has flouted the spirit, if not always the letter of its commitments under the WTO and other agreements.”

Sen. Sherrod Brown, D-Ohio, said launching the investigation sends a strong signal to China that it will be held accountable if it doesn’t work with the United States to level the playing field. But he said the Trump administration needs to go further to address dumping of products such as steel. “We need to follow through with meaningful action and that means the president needs to get serious about trade enforcement, especially on steel,” Brown said.

But there are risks to the White House approach. Caroline Freund, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics, says U.S. companies that try to do business with China could get hurt in several ways. “China is likely to retaliate with tariffs on their own of U.S. goods, and then U.S. companies will be further hurt in China,” she said. “It won’t lead to anything positive.”

In an editorial on Monday, the state-run newspaper China Daily said the investigation will “poison” relations.

But Freund also points out that for all of Trump’s rhetoric about China while on the campaign trail, the White House so far has been slow to take action against unfair trade practices. Trump backed off of labeling China a currency manipulator for instance, and a long promised report on steel dumping has been delayed.

She says that’s because it’s one thing to talk about steel tariffs, but imposing them hurts other U.S. manufacturers, such as automakers and appliance companies.

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Trump Administration Extends Deadline For Insurers To Decide On Obamacare Markets

President Trump at a listening session with health insurance executives at the White House earlier this year.

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Aude Guerrucci/Bloomberg/Getty Images

The Trump administration is giving insurance companies an extra three weeks to decide whether to offer insurance plans through the Affordable Care Act markets, and how much to charge.

The extension comes as insurance companies wait for President Trump to decide whether he will continue to make payments to insurance companies that are called for under the Affordable Care Act but that some Republicans have opposed.

The payments — known as cost-sharing reduction payments — reimburse insurance companies for discounts on copayments and deductibles that they’re required by law to offer to low-income customers. The Congressional Budget Office estimates the payments this year would be about $7 billion.

Trump has said he may end the reimbursements, which he calls “bailouts,” and has been leaving insurers to wonder month to month about whether they will receive a check.

A White House spokesman says Trump is “working with his staff and his Cabinet to consider the issues raised by the CSR payments.”

The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services says it is offering the extra time so insurance companies can plan ahead in case the government decides to end the payments. In a memo Friday, the agency said many states are now requiring companies to file their rates for 2018 on the assumption that they won’t be reimbursed.

Several companies say that without the cost-sharing payments, their rates will see double-digit increases. For example, Blue Cross Blue Shield of North Carolina says ending the payments would push its rates up 14.1 percent.

And Marc Harrison, CEO of Intermountain Healthcare, which covers 173,000 people on the ACA exchanges in Idaho and Utah, says premium increases could be “astonishing.”

Still, he says, his company will stick with the Obamacare markets. “These are our patients. We’re not going anywhere. We’re going to keep trying to figure this out.”

The HHS memo says “there have been no changes regarding HHS’s ability to make cost-sharing reduction payments to insurers.”

But it then says the agency intends to change the ACA’s risk adjustment program to compensate for the loss of cost-sharing payments.

The changes are technical and complex, but Timothy Jost, professor emeritus at Washington & Lee University’s law school, says in a Health Affairs blog that the memo just deepens the confusion.

“We still do not know if all of this is needed or not — the Trump administration has not made up its mind,” he says.

The cost-sharing payments have been at the center of a political battle over the Affordable Care Act since before President Trump took office.

House Republicans opposed to the health law sued then-President Barack Obama, saying the payments were illegal because Congress hadn’t appropriated money for them. A judge agreed but allowed the administration to continue making the payments during an appeal.

Now that Trump is in the White House, and Republican efforts to repeal and replace the Affordable Care Act have failed, many Republicans are urging the president to continue the payments rather than undermine the health care markets.

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Rugby Player Phaidra Knight Retires After 18 Years

“A violent yet controlled sport that’s kind of a form of art.” That’s how Phaidra Knight describes rugby. On her retirement, she tells NPR’s Lulu Garcia-Navarro what drew her to the sport.

(SOUNDBITE OF TRIBECA SONG, “GET LARGE”)

LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, HOST:

The Rugby World Cup is underway in Ireland, where teams of women from 12 countries, including the United States, are rucking and scrumming in pursuit of the world title.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER #1: Marsters trying to get past Naoupu – a really good chuck.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER #2: Brilliant pass here from the fullback Trey Hoon (ph).

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER #3: Brushes off Wunderfinder (ph), comes back again, gets rid of two more. So she’s beaten three.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER #1: Thomas with a handoff – still going – Kristen Thomas with the game’s first score.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: A fixture of the U.S. rugby scene is Phaidra Knight. She just announced her retirement from the sport after 18 years as a USA Eagle and three World Cups. But that doesn’t mean she’s missing the 2017 World Cup this year. She’ll be there, too, broadcasting with NBC Sports in Dublin instead. This week on Out of Bounds, women’s rugby. Rugby Magazine’s 2010 player of the decade Phaedra Knight joins us now from New York. Welcome.

PHAIDRA KNIGHT: Thank you. I’m stoked to be here with you.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I’m stoked to have you. For those of us who may not know much about rugby, can you tell us the positions you played, prop, then flanker? And what do those things mean?

KNIGHT: (Laughter) A prop is one of the two positions on the field in the scrum, where they – you literally prop the hooker, who’s a player, obviously, in the middle of the two props, up. And props typically are your strongest or some of your strongest players. That was the position I played in the 2002 World Cup. Immediately after that World Cup, I moved to the position of flanker. And this is how the position was sold to me, right?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: (Laughter).

KNIGHT: I was told you get to essentially set the limits of the game by testing the referee and what they’re going to tolerate.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: (Laughter).

KNIGHT: So you’re the craziest player on the field. You can run like a free radical and tackle people, just destroy.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Sounds fun.

KNIGHT: Yeah. Your goal in life is to make the fly-half’s life miserable. And so I was sold at that point.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: (Laughter). What was it that attracted you? Why did you find it so compelling?

KNIGHT: Probably the surface thing was that I was able to run as fast as I could and run through people. That was emancipating to me. But the biggest magnet to the game – into the sport – was how inclusive and accepting the community was. And for me, I was just this small-town girl from Georgia – didn’t quite know who I was or all of what I was. I knew that I had probably a lot of anger issues that I needed to get through, a lot of identity issues to work through. And it didn’t matter. That was the one community that didn’t care. And they accepted me and everyone else that knocked on their door.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: We often hear about men channeling their anger issues or medical issues into sports. We don’t hear as much about women doing that in the same way – especially sort of aggressive sports. Do you think the stigma has changed? Do you think that this has shifted now?

KNIGHT: I think that there are a number of women who come to the sport because, you know, something very deeply calls them that will allow them to be able to express themselves, right? And it’s not that rugby’s full of just angry people. I think that that life is full of – I mean, we all have anger.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: We do.

KNIGHT: And we all struggle with that. We all have different degrees of it. We also have different ways of expressing it. And this offers an opportunity to express that in the way that men do it, right? This violent yet controlled sport that’s really kind of a form of art.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Rugby player and now rugby commentator Phaidra Knight, thank you so much.

KNIGHT: Thank you.

Copyright © 2017 NPR. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for further information.

NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by Verb8tm, Inc., an NPR contractor, and produced using a proprietary transcription process developed with NPR. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.

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Ashes to Ashes, Dust to … Interactive Biodegradable Funerary Urns?

The Bios Urn mixes cremains with soil and seedlings. It automatically waters and cares for the memorial sapling, sending updates to a smartphone app.

Bios Urn

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Bios Urn

Earlier this summer, a modest little startup in Barcelona, Spain, unveiled its newest product — a biodegradable, Internet-connected funeral urn that turns the ashes of departed loved ones into an indoor tree. Just mix the cremains with soil and seedlings, and the digital-age urn will automatically water and care for your memorial sapling, sending constant updates to an app on your smartphone.

At first glance, the concept seems gimmicky — evidently, we’re running out of ideas for smart appliances. But the Bios Incube system can also be seen as the latest example of a gradual transformation in modern culture.

Technology is fundamentally changing how we deal with death and its attendant issues of funerals, memorials and human remains. Much of this change is for the good. Some developments are a little spooky. But one thing is for sure: You can do a lot of cool things with ashes these days.

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The Bios Incube system, which went on sale in June after a successful crowdfunding campaign, is the latest iteration of a much older idea in which ashes are essentially used as compost for a memorial tree or plant. But the Incube system adds some high-tech twists. The biodegradable urn is placed within a 5-gallon planter with an elegant, off-white, minimalist design vibe — call it the iUrn.

Actually, that’s the Incube. Fill it with water and an internal irrigation system kicks in while separate sensors monitor the progress of your plant, taking constant readings on temperature, humidity and soil conditions. This information is wirelessly beamed to the included smartphone app, allowing the bereaved user to better care for and nurture the seedling as it grows into a tree.

Roger Moliné, co-founder of Bios Urn, says the company offers two versions of its system. One provides the basic biodegradable urn and planter at $145. The more expensive version — if you want all the high-tech bells, whistles, atmosphere sensors and smartphone apps — tops out at $695.

“Interestingly enough, we have found so far that most have opted voluntarily for the high-tech option,” Moliné says.

He has a theory on that.

“Most of us are connected to the digital world, and we have become used to it,” he says. “Perhaps by tying together this process with technology, there can be a sense of comfort that comes from using a familiar process with a new experience. We hope that it will push people in a new direction and perhaps make this process easier for those experiencing loss.”

The Bios Urn is part of a high-tech system in which the ashes of a departed loved one are used to help grow a tree.

Bios Urn

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Bios Urn

The Bios Urn concept is indeed part of a larger transformation in which technology is changing how we think about death and dying, says Candi Cann, author of the book Virtual Afterlives: Grieving the Dead in the Twenty-first Century.

“Their approach implies a different sort of afterlife than the religious one — an afterlife that theoretically we can partake in,” says Cann, who teaches religion and world culture at Baylor University.

“Recent theories on mourning reveal that having continued bonds with the deceased allow us to navigate everyday life while renegotiating our relationships with loved ones who are no longer present,” she says. “So in this way, the Bios Urn might actually foster a healthy type of mourning that allows us to look after the dead in an active, daily way.”

Caring for the dead via a smartphone app may seem strange, Cann says, but it makes perfect sense for those of us living in a perpetually connected world: “The generation today has grown up with online spaces and smartphones, so this is their medium.”

Cann has done extensive research on modern mourning rituals around the planet, and the various ways that technology is impacting how we deal with death and dying. The Internet has certainly changed the way we do things. Obituaries are posted online, funeral arrangements are sent by email or text, and social media platforms like Facebook now offer a range of memorial pages and legacy contact options.

In general, this is all good healthy progress, Cann says. “Smartphones and social media spaces have forced a decline in the importance of a controlled obituary narrative, as more people can contribute to the communal memory of a person and the meaning of their life,” she says.

A recurring theme in Cann’s work concerns an odd and abiding reticence in mainstream Western attitudes toward death: In short, we just don’t like to talk about it. Our aversion leads to a lot of unhealthy sublimation in the culture. “I would argue that the reason we see so much death in the media and in video games is precisely because we are not having real conversations about death,” Cann says.

Technology is helping in that arena, too. Cann points to online communities like Death Cafe, which use Internet forums to arrange local meetups for the recently bereaved.

Then there is the issue of what to do with the remains. We humans have been navigating this dilemma since the dawn of civilization, but recent technological advances have opened up some options. You can have ashes incorporated into jewelry, blended into oil paintings, mixed into tattoo ink, submerged into coral reefs or even pressed into vinyl records. And don’t forget about the festive fireworks option.

While developing the Bios Urn system, Moliné explored how other cultures are processing cremains, like Tokyo’s unique Ruriden columbarium, which utilizes LED Buddha statues and digital smart cards.

The Ruriden columbarium houses futuristic alters with glass Buddha statues that correspond to drawers storing the ashes of the deceased.

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“I’ve seen some interesting things in China and Japan,” he says. “Both have run of out burial space in larger cities and have created interesting ways of commemorating those who have passed.”

Cann says that these new modern rituals, facilitated by various technologies, can help us get a little friendlier with death.

“In Brazil, I went to a public crematorium that cremates a body every 15 minutes, and is an actively used public park and picnic space,” he says. “Families were playing and picnicking among the ashes. If we see deathscapes as friendly places, rather than where the dead are banished, we might be able to utilize them in healthier and more creative ways.”

Looking to the future, however, Cann addresses more worrisome technologies.

“One of the areas I’m thinking more about is the use of artificial intelligence and digital avatars,” Cann said. “These are people intending to upload themselves, via AI, into digital avatars.”

Proponents of this idea contend that uploading the mind into a computer is entirely plausible. But science fiction has some cautionary tales in this area — any technology that promises to defy death is usually nothing but trouble. Ask Dr. Frankenstein. Even speculating on this sci-fi scenario can get a bit dodgy, Cann says.

“Whenever people focus more on extending life rather than examining its quality, death loses its importance,” Cann says. “If we are spending more time trying to deny death or prolong dying, then I think we are not living well.”

In this light, the Bios Urn seems like a fairly gentle step forward. Technology can’t yet provide us with digital immortality, but it can help us grow a memorial tree in our living room. What’s not to like?


Glenn McDonaldis a freelance writer, editor and game designer based in Chapel Hill, N.C. You can follow him@glennmcdonald1.

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You Can Order a Dozen STD Tests Online — But Should You?

An STD testing kit from myLAB Box allows users to gather samples at home and mail them back to the company.

Courtesy of myLAB Box

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Courtesy of myLAB Box

America is losing the battle against sexually transmitted infections. Cases of chlamydia, gonorrhea and syphilis all hit record-high numbers in 2015. Tens of thousands contract HIV every year in the U.S., and oral cancers caused by human papillomavirus are increasing.

So startups are popping up online to help serve what they see as unmet demand for STD testing. One advertises that you can “get a sexy deal” by ordering.

The question is whether those companies can survive — at least one left the market before its product even launched — and whether the services they offer get the right tests to the right people.

Although encouraging people to get tested is a simple enough public health message, that doesn’t mean it’s simple to carry out, says Kevin Ault, a professor of obstetrics and gynecology at the University of Kansas Medical Center in Kansas City, Kan.

“You have to make the appointment at the doctor’s office, drive to the doctor’s office, give the sample to the doctor, the doctor sends it to the lab, you wait for the results to come back, and then you wait for the doctor to call you,” Ault says. And the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommend that people in some at-risk groups do all that several times a year.

“The biggest advantage of home tests in general is if you catch HIV or chlamydia early on, you can change the natural course of the disease,” Ault says.

Few options exist to make the process easier. So far, there is just one test approved that gives rapid results in the home, and it’s for HIV. The startups are hoping that being able to collect samples at home will be enough to encourage people to get tested.

“The concept of providing the possibility of a self-sampling approach to test for STDs is really going to be our future in terms of diagnostic testing,” says Jennifer Smith, an associate professor of epidemiology at the University of North Carolina Gillings School of Global Public Health in Chapel Hill. Hill also consults for myLAB Box, one of companies offering these services. “Getting the actual test to the patient is going to be a way of not only increasing access and improving acceptability, but also cutting down on unnecessary medical visits,” Smith says.

Big increases in people infected with STDs

A sobering report from the CDC last October revealed just how much new approaches are needed to combat increasing infection rates. More than 1.5 million people contracted chlamydia in 2015, an increase of 5.9 percent from the year before. Similarly, gonorrhea cases jumped 12.8 percent to almost 400,000 cases. The nearly 24,000 new cases of primary and secondary syphilis (the two most infectious disease stages) represented a 19 percent increase.

Aside from early symptoms that several STDs can cause — such as painful urination, discharge, bleeding, swelling or pain — long-term symptoms in people who don’t receive treatment can be serious. Untreated gonorrhea, for example, can cause infertility and long-term pelvic or abdominal pain in men and women as well as ectopic pregnancies, which can be fatal. If syphilis is not treated, it can damage the brain, eyes and nervous system, potentially resulting in severe headaches, poor muscle coordination, paralysis, numbness, dementia or blindness. In rare cases, syphilis can cause death 10 to 30 years after infection.

STDs also have downstream consequences for the next generation. Cases of congenital syphilis, which can cause severe illness and stillbirth, has increased in newborns 38 percent from 2012 to 2014, according to the CDC, even though women don’t even represent 10 percent of new infections overall.

New HIV infections have been steadily dropping, but 2015 still saw more than 39,500 new cases. And although HPV, the most commonly transmitted STD, resolves on its own in most people, it still causes about 31,500 new cancers annually.

“When something affects millions of people, even a low rate of serious outcomes translates to a lot of people,” says H. Hunter Handsfield, a professor emeritus at the University of Washington who consults for the CDC on STDs and spent a quarter of a century directing the STD control program for Seattle’s public health department. “We have an ongoing and important public health problem of people getting HIV and getting cervical and other HPV-related cancers. The numbers of those actual cancers are small, but that’s a big deal for each of those people.”

Startups See An Opportunity

The idea of online STD testing isn’t new, but most services so far have been localized, limited in test options or still require visiting a lab or pharmacy.

For example, residents of Maryland, Washington, D.C., and Alaska can request kits to be mailed to them with self-collection instructions and materials for genital and/or rectal swabs, but only for gonorrhea, chlamydia and trichomoniasis. Planned Parenthood has begun offering similar services but only for gonorrhea and chlamydia and only in Idaho, Minnesota and Washington. More than a dozen commercial companies nationally let consumers order STD testing kits online for other infections, but buyers still have to visit a local lab for sample collection.

The online businesses aim to offer many more tests without customers needing to go anywhere except the mailbox. The two business models are subscription-based or one-off orders: Consumers order the test, receive it in the mail, collect their own blood, urine, genital and/or rectal samples, mail samples back in a prepaid envelope and then wait until results are available to check online.

One company, GetTested, still has a live website but has ceased operation, according to a spokesperson. Another, Mately, doesn’t appear operational and did not respond to multiple attempts to request an interview. That leaves myLAB box, which has been tweaking its services and procedures since its launch in December 2013 as executives learn what does and doesn’t work.

The CDC generally supports the idea of at-home STD testing, according to John Papp, a microbiologist in the CDC’s Division of STD Prevention and author of CDC’s lab testing recommendations for gonorrhea and chlamydia.

“From our perspective in public health, we want people to have access,” Papp says. “The concept of greater access, however that looks, if it’s by a website or a van down by the river, is always a good thing. But the regulatory piece needs to be adhered to.”

But little regulation exists for online, at-home STD testing. The labs where tests are performed should meet the standards of the Clinical Laboratory Improvement Amendments, and the tests themselves should be FDA-approved when available. The tests offered by myLAB Box meet both those requirements.

“There’s no FDA indication for at-home collection and sending it into a laboratory,” Papp says. “Having said that, if the specimen is collected properly, regardless of the setting, the test is probably being performed adequately.”

Most of the tests detect some piece of the organism itself. Three others, for hepatitis C, syphilis and herpes simplex type II, test for the body’s antibodies made in response to the infection. The HIV test looks for both the virus and antibodies. The tests have been shown to work even with samples exposed to extreme temperatures, so having a blood spot and urine sample sitting in a Florida mailbox in August shouldn’t affect results, Handsfield says.

Reaching the right people

But Handsfield says online tests don’t reach the people who need testing and treatment the most.

“It’s a good idea, with a giant caveat that it reaches the wrong people,” Handsfield says about online services. “The highest infection rates are in people with lesser education or lower income, in inner cities or the rural kid in a red state immersed in a methamphetamine world.”

He would like to see public health departments partner with online sites and subsidize the cost to promote home self-testing for a broader population of high-risk, lower-income people. The CDC’s October report, for example, showed that 15- to 24-year-olds make up half of gonorrhea cases and almost two-thirds of all chlamydia ones. “These are not the same people who are paying money to buy tests online,” Handsfield says.

MyLAB Box offers three pricing tiers: the “Safe Box” for $189 (HIV, chlamydia, gonorrhea and trichomoniasis); the “Uber Box” for $269 (adds hepatitis C, herpes simplex type II and syphilis); and the “Total Box” for $399 (adds HPV, Mycoplasma genitalium and ureaplasma plus rectal and throat testing for chlamydia and gonorrhea). Each test can also be purchased individually for $79.

But Gary Richwald, myLAB Box’s medical director and chief scientific officer, says the company is reaching the right people. He says their rates of positive tests are on par with or higher than what he saw when he ran STD clinics for Los Angeles County, the largest such program in the U.S., from 1989 to 2000. For example, 7.3 percent of myLAB Box clients’ tests for chlamydia were positive in February. Community rates at L.A. clinics two decades ago, where the population would presumably have been high risk, ranged from 4 percent to 5 percent, Richwald says, with family planning clinic rates lagging just behind that.

“The data show in every study that people who voluntarily go somewhere to be tested have higher rates than the general population who might be tested door to door,” Richwald says. And yet “the vast majority of people with STDs never get tested, and they are the principal source of new infections.”

Richwald describes the company’s customer base as people mostly in their mid- to late 20s, with many in their 30s and 40s as well, and often at a transitional stage in their life, such as having recently ended a relationship or gotten divorced. Economically, they seem to hover between lower middle class and middle upper class, he says. Customers include residents of areas with doctor shortages, where getting tested requires going to urgent care or the ER; single mothers without time to get to a clinic or doctor’s office; and individuals with previous unsatisfactory health care experiences.

They also tend to have three other characteristics: comfort and familiarity with using the Internet, a desire for convenience — “I can’t tell you how many people said they collected their specimen after midnight,” Richwald says — and concerns about privacy.

“With this election and general concerns about privacy in this country, people are afraid that even their request for a test, much less their positive, would end up in some place that collects health-related information,” Richwald says. A number of customers include those in the health care field themselves, he says, such as physicians, dentists and nurse practitioners.

Choosing the right tests

One big question is what to test for.

Public health clinics generally offer free testing of gonorrhea, chlamydia, syphilis and HIV, with some offering various additional tests, such as trichomoniasis, HPV or herpes type II. Few public health clinics test for ureaplasma, hepatitis C or Mycoplasma genitalium.

A person’s first instinct may be to test for “everything,” especially if they have a sexual history or recent sexual experience that could be a concern. But not everybody should be tested for every infection.

Hepatitis C, for example, is currently among the tests offered by myLAB Box, but it’s not considered a sexually transmitted disease for anyone other than men with HIV who have sex with men, Handsfield says. (All individuals born between 1945 and ’65 are recommended to be tested once for hepatitis C, however.) And men are not typically tested for HPV because no treatment exists for the infection, and it’s unclear what to do with a positive result.

MyLAB Box company co-founder Lora Ivanova says the company trusts the consumer to do the homework on what tests to order.

“Our role is to make it as easy as possible for the person who has decided to get tested to get the test they want,” Ivanova says. “For a long time, consumers have been limited to the tests they can take based on the medial debate. We’re taking the position that the consumers ultimately have the right to know. We don’t see why we as providers should limit their access to care.”

But if doctors and public health policymakers cannot agree on who should be tested for infections like Mycoplasma genitalium and ureaplasma, Handsfield says, then how would a consumer make that decision?

“The issue of who to test and what tests to do continues to be a question that’s very important but does not have an exact answer,” Richwald acknowledges. That’s partly why he was brought on, and Ivanova did say the company’s system “is in constant flux” based on “recommendations and available data.” The company doesn’t offer testing for herpes simplex type I, for example, because 60 percent to 70 percent of individuals already have antibodies, acquired non-sexually in childhood.

Richwald also says the company isn’t testing for ureaplasma anymore, but the test still appears on the company website. Mycoplasma genitalium presents a conundrum as well.

First, no FDA-approved diagnostic test for the bacteria exists. Experts disagree on how to interpret positive results, Handsfield says. It’s a common bacteria found in about 1 percent of the population, but most people don’t have symptoms. Treatment is challenging and not recommended for infections without symptoms. But for those with symptoms — vaginal pain or itching, discharge from the urethra, painful urination and painful or swelling joints — treatment can prevent pelvic inflammatory disease or worsening symptoms, Richwald says.

Another consideration people must weigh is when to test, because incubation periods vary by disease. If someone has been regularly sexually active, especially without using a condom, and has not been tested in the six months, timing is less relevant. But if someone is testing after a specific encounter, some infections, such as HIV, cannot be detected immediately.

“Often people get tested too soon, such as a week after exposure,” Handsfield says. Chlamydia and gonorrhea can usually be detected after several days (a week on the conservative side), but herpes and one HIV test require up to three months of delay before testing.

A chart on the myLAB Box site provides time frames for testing and, when necessary, retesting. It recommends that people wait until the end of the time frames listed before testing unless the person plans to retest. The ideal testing window for Mycoplasma genitalium, however, is unknown, Handsfield says.

“For the panel as a whole, I would say wait three months if you have no symptoms,” Handsfield says. “If you have symptoms — if you’re having urethral discharge, unexplained vaginal discharge, abdominal pain — online testing is not for you. You need to see a doctor.”

Handling positive tests, whether true or false positives, also requires careful consideration. The newest syphilis tests, for example, are known for giving a lot of false positives, Handsfield says, and that can lead to increased anxiety between a first test and a retest, although the same concern would exist at a community clinic. At myLAB Box, Richwald personally calls all customers with a positive HIV result and ensures they get an appointment with an HIV specialist group. Immediate treatment can dramatically reduce their infectiousness while improving their health, he says. A positive result for syphilis requires confirmation at a clinic in person, and someone with chlamydia and symptoms of pelvic pain, for example, would be told to go to a clinic or urgent care.

MyLAB Box regularly reviews new research to inform their decisions, but it remains a tricky line to walk: making tests widely available to the public while trying to guide them toward the best tests for their situation without driving them away.

“There’s a lot of fear, hesitation and confusion, and I think what it has ultimately done is turn people to the point where they’re sweeping it under the rug,” Ivanova says. “At the end of the day, it’s about getting the person to get tested. If we lose that one single time in a year or in two or five years that they have mustered the courage to get online and get the tests, they might spend the next five years infecting every partner they have.”


Tara Haelle is the co-author of The Informed Parent: A Science-Based Resource for Your Child’s First Four Years. She’s on Twitter: @tarahaelle

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Trump Pressures China On Trade; Executive Action Expected Monday

President Trump spoke on the phone with Chinese President Xi Jinping late Friday, but according to the White House, the two didn’t discuss Monday’s planned executive action that will order a U.S. investigation into Chinese trade practices.

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President Trump is planning to ask his staff to consider investigating Chinese trade practices, senior White House officials said Saturday. The Trump administration is insisting the move isn’t tied to heightening tensions with North Korea, but it is inherently connected to complications in the region.

“I don’t think we’re heading toward a period of greater conflict (with China),” said one White House official. “This is simply business.”

The executive memo Trump is expected to sign on Monday will direct U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer to look into whether his office should open an investigation into China’s trade policies and whether they abide by the U.S. Trade Act of 1974.

It’s impossible, however, to see the move as somehow disconnected from the back-and-forth rhetoric between the U.S. and North Korea over the past week. Trump has previously expressed frustration that China hasn’t done more to economically punish North Korea.

“I am very disappointed in China,” he said on July 29 on Twitter. “Our foolish past leaders have allowed them to make hundreds of billions of dollars a year in trade, yet … they do NOTHING for us with North Korea, just talk.

“We will no longer allow this to continue.”

And then on Thursday, when speaking with reporters, Trump said in relation to North Korea, “if China helps us, I feel a lot differently toward trade.”

The title of the so-called “301 investigation” that Trump is expected to call for Lighthizer to consider, refers to Section 301 of the U.S. Trade Act of 1974, which authorizes the president to work to remove or retaliate against a practice by a foreign government that is “unjustifiable and burdens or restricts United States commerce.”

In a background briefing with reporters on Saturday, White House officials pointed to frustration from U.S. businesses that they have to share intellectual property with China as a condition for doing business in the country.

“Americans are among the most innovative,” said one official. “They should not be forced to turn over the fruits of their labor.”

Despite Trump’s previous comments, officials at the briefing repeatedly rebuffed any attempt by reporters to connect the possible investigation to the North Korea situation.

It’s unclear whether any actual repercussions for China, like sanctions or tariffs, would come from an investigation like this, and officials said there is no timeline for how long an investigation would take.

Both Reuters and CNN reported this week that Trump was planning to call for the investigation to be considered earlier this month but that the president waited until after a United Nations Security Council vote to impose new sanctions on North Korea. The vote passed with unanimous support from all 15 member nations, including Russia and China.

CNN also reported that Trump told Chinese President Xi Jinping about the expected executive action in a phone call on Friday. A White House communications staffer declined to confirm or deny the report on Saturday, instead pointing to a statement released by the White House on Friday describing the phone call. That statement didn’t mention the executive action, but said the leaders discussed North Korea policy and Trump’s visit to China later this year.

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Not My Job: Football Hall Of Famer Jerry Rice Gets Quizzed On Hannah Montana

Jerry Rice smiles during a game at on Dec. 3, 1994 at Candlestick Park in San Francisco.

Joe Pugli/AP

In the 1980s, quarterback Joe Montana of the San Francisco 49ers was known as the premier passer in the game. But you wouldn’t even know his name if there hadn’t been someone on the other end to catch his passes. Most often, that was wide receiver Jerry Rice, and today we’ve invited the Football Hall of Famer to play a game called “Take a seat, Joe Montana! It’s time for Hannah Montana.” Three questions for Jerry Rice about that other great Montana — Hannah.

Click the audio link above to see how he does.

PETER SAGAL, HOST:

And now the game where we ask stars about things down here on Earth. It’s called Not My Job. So in the 1980s, Joe Montana of the San Francisco 49ers was acclaimed as the premier passer in the game. But if somebody wasn’t out there to catch those passes, you would not know that man’s name. Most often, it was Jerry Rice, a football Hall of Famer and the greatest wide receiver ever to strap on cleats. Jerry Rice, welcome.

(CHEERING)

JERRY RICE: Peter, can I…

SAGAL: No, please.

RICE: Excuse me. Can I add something to that, Peter?

SAGAL: By all means.

RICE: Yeah, you know, yeah, the greatest receiver to ever play the game, but I like to think of myself as the greatest player to ever play the game.

SAGAL: OK, forgive me.

(LAUGHTER, APPLAUSE)

RICE: Just joking.

SAGAL: Yeah. That’s the hardest job in the field, I think, because you have to concentrate on catching this very fast-moving object coming at you, and – but you also know that as soon as you grab it, if you grab it – what?

RICE: Look at the size of my hands.

SAGAL: (Laughter) You know, when you held them up, you blocked out the light, but…

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: I…

PAULA POUNDSTONE: He’s going to be part of the eclipse.

SAGAL: I’ve always wondered about…

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: So I’ve always wondered about that – that you’re out there. And, of course, you’re doing this incredibly difficult thing. You have to catch this ball, which is very hard to do, on the run. But you know that as soon as you catch it, somebody’s going to try to kill you.

RICE: That’s true.

SAGAL: Does that weigh on your mind as you’re reaching up to get the ball?

RICE: No, I just run very fast.

(LAUGHTER, APPLAUSE)

SAGAL: Well, let’s go back in time. Were you – I assume you were a star athlete growing up, right?

RICE: No, I was a nerd.

SAGAL: Were you really?

RICE: Yeah. I started playing football around my sophomore year in high school.

SAGAL: Really?

RICE: Yeah.

SAGAL: I’m somewhat comforted by that. When you say you were a nerd, what…

ROY BLOUNT JR: Too late.

SAGAL: Yeah, I know.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: I was hoping you were going to say early 50s, then I’d be, like, yes, but…

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: So when you say nerd, what do you mean?

RICE: Very quiet, but I had very large hands.

SAGAL: Right.

(LAUGHTER)

RICE: And really skinny. So I would walk around with my hands in my pocket all the time because everybody would notice my hands before they noticed me.

SAGAL: Wait a minute. So you’re telling me that, like, you were embarrassed as a kid…

RICE: Yeah.

SAGAL: …Because your hands were so large.

RICE: They were so big.

SAGAL: And that ended up being the attribute that helped you become the greatest wide receiver…

RICE: Right.

SAGAL: …Of all time, a Hall of Famer.

RICE: Right.

SAGAL: You are the football equivalent of Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer.

(LAUGHTER, APPLAUSE)

SAGAL: Think about it. Right? Everybody makes fun of him, and then all of a sudden, they’re like, Jerry, will you catch this football tonight? And you’re like, I can do that.

RICE: I’ve never thought of it that way.

(LAUGHTER)

RICE: That is amazing.

ALONZO BODDEN: Can I tell you tell that I, too, have incredibly large hands?

SAGAL: Yeah.

BODDEN: It takes more than that to be you.

SAGAL: Yeah.

(LAUGHTER, APPLAUSE)

RICE: Thank you.

SAGAL: I got one last question, which is that often, the wide receivers line up outside toward the sidelines, and you’re often right across from the safety or cornerback who’s going to be trying to cover you. Is – what passes between you two guys, as you’re looking at him, he’s looking at you, and you – he knows that he’s going to try to stop you, and you know he’s not going to? I mean, did you ever – do you ever, like, trash talk or just…

RICE: No, I just look at the defensive back and I say, you done.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: All right, Jerry Rice, we’ve invited you here to play a game we’re calling…

BILL KURTIS: Take a Seat, Joe Montana. It’s Time for Hannah Montana.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: We’re talking about that. You formed one of the great offensive tandems with quarterback Joe Montana, so we thought we’d ask you about that other great Montana – Hannah.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: You’re looking at me with a look of confusion. Do you know who Hannah Montana was?

RICE: I have heard the name.

SAGAL: Hannah Montana, just so you know, was a fictional character played by the – on the Disney Channel – by the very real Miley Cyrus. It was a TV show about a young girl who had a normal life, but her other life was being a pop star named Hannah Montana. That was the plot of the show. So we’re going to ask you three questions about that. And if you get two of them right…

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: …You will win our prize.

RICE: Are you serious?

SAGAL: I am absolutely serious.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: This is so funny because you were talking about your laser stare, your absolute confidence. You are now fidgeting in your chair, looking for an exit. This is…

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: …Hilarious.

POUNDSTONE: Those big hands can’t help you now, Jerry.

(LAUGHTER)

RICE: Yeah, it’s getting hot under here, guys.

SAGAL: Bill, who is Jerry Rice playing for?

KURTIS: Luke McEvoy of San Francisco, Calif.

(APPLAUSE)

SAGAL: Ready to do this?

RICE: Let’s do it.

SAGAL: All right. When Disney was creating the show back then, they considered a bunch of names based on place names, you know, eventually, like, Hannah Montana. They thought of a name – Alexis Texas. Why couldn’t they use that one? A, the state of Texas charges royalties for any commercial use of its name; B, cast member Moises Arias had a thick Castilian accent and he pronounced it Alexis Texas or C, Alexis Texas is the name of a well-known adult film star.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: C.

(LAUGHTER)

RICE: C.

SAGAL: C.

(LAUGHTER)

RICE: I am good. I am so good.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: Yeah, it was C, Alexis Texas. They were afraid what would happen when kid fans of the show were to Google the name Alexis Texas. So it became Hannah Montana. All right.

RICE: So I got that one right.

KURTIS: You bet.

SAGAL: You got that one right, yeah.

(APPLAUSE)

SAGAL: All right. Second question. The show “Hannah Montana,” which was a big hit – ran for some years – influenced many artists and performers, such as whom? A, actor Eli Roth, who listened to her music to prepare for his role as a stone-cold killer in the movie “Inglourious Basterds” because he said it made him feel insane…

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: …B, performance artist Marina Abramovic who, after hearing one Hannah Montana song, conceived of her piece “The Artist Is Present” where she sat in silence for over 700 hours…

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: …Or C, Lin-Manuel Miranda, author and composer, who says Hannah’s struggles as she tried to become famous inspired the early scenes as Alexander Hamilton…

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: …Starts his climb to the top.

RICE: Peter, you know, I’ve been preparing myself for this all day.

SAGAL: I bet you have – running up and down those hills.

RICE: So you guys are not going to help me out.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: A.

RICE: A?

SAGAL: They like A…

RICE: A.

SAGAL: …Apparently. Yes, it’s A.

(APPLAUSE)

SAGAL: Eli Roth – apparently listening to Hannah Montana put him in the mood to beat people to death with a bat. All right.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: “Hannah Montana” has a lot of dedicated fans, but some of them may surprise you, like which of these? A, Vice President Mike Pence…

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: …Who considers her music, quote, “wholesome but danceable.”

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: …B, actor Stephen Baldwin, who has Hannah Montana’s initials tattooed on his shoulder or C, artist Damien Hirst, who called his installation of a decomposing beef cow The Real Hannah Montana.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: If we could weaponize the look of incredulity that Jerry Rice is giving me right now…

(LAUGHTER)

RICE: Did you say number two – a tattoo?

SAGAL: I said, Stephen Baldwin, the actor, the answer…

RICE: Wow.

SAGAL: …Was that he got a tattoo of Hannah – H-M – Hannah Montana’s initials on his shoulder. He was so inspired by her.

RICE: OK, such art. So I would say C.

SAGAL: You’re going to go C, the – Damien Hirst, the British conceptual artist.

(APPLAUSE)

SAGAL: Damien Hirst fans put a decomposing cow in a thing and called it The Real Hannah Montana. I wouldn’t put it by him, but it was actually the tattoo. It was Stephen Baldwin. You’ll be happy or sad to know that Mr. Baldwin now regrets the tattoo.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: Bill, how did Jerry Rice do on our show?

KURTIS: His score was two out of three, and you’re a winner. That’s a win.

(APPLAUSE)

SAGAL: Jerry Rice is a Super Bowl MVP, three-time Super Bowl champ. Jerry recently partnered with the National Kidney Foundation to promote kidney health. Jerry Rice, thank you so much for joining us.

(SOUNDBITE OF JOHNNY PEARSON’S “HEAVY ACTION (THEME FROM “MONDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL”)”)

SAGAL: In just a minute, Bill blames it on the tortellini in the Listener Limerick Challenge. Call 1-888-WAIT-WAIT to join us on the air. We’ll be back in a minute with more of WAIT WAIT… DON’T TELL ME from NPR.

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